For Freud, the id was the psychophsical autonomous sytem,
very somatic, the mostl yunconcious an Žd autotßamzticak functios of the body
like brathing, hert neating but also the production of the hormons, esopeciall thesexual hormons.
Here it is to remond that inded femal and masculine sexula hormons are differnt in aulity and aslo
in qunatity. Thats aneurolgical reason for differnt
feelings which result in differnt srzúcturing off thinking, perception and habits.
Now for Deleuz eand Guattri the FFunction od fsomethin glike th eautonmos syrtem is varying by age, by habits and by traing.
In yoga there is an incredible concious contol over the autonmous sytem
attainable. It is also iontersting that somethinh likesiome healthy instincsw come in,
if you make aloto fyoga you don't like smoking anymore, also alcohhol and other drugs become bad tasting.
You got also a better and shrper perceptes and easier undestanding. You don't have to struggle so much with yourself and others.
There very often teh "bad impuölses" no more any longer.
It is the merit of the nervous sytem and the nerve cells, that they
are siome "Tabul rasa" as Lock ehad put, you can write anything in the memory nad aon te Body without organs. At least it is very, very variable.
So, the autonomous sytem si a specil abig neurolgical maxchine.
Fro most peole most of the time the differecne as an impoetsn machne and teh
id is not so important, so Deluze and Guattri bring in a genralization.
In order to stay understandable and also to make the connections to#
the terminology and theory of Freud, the notion Id has been used, also b yDeleuze and Gauttari themeselves.
You can call this big machine,.the autonomous sytem "Id", It stays as neurological machine.
These both tendencies, differnt hormons and the same plasticity of te
nerve cells give the spectrum of the discussion of teh biological "beingg man or woman".
As hormon production differs also b yindividuum to individuum there is a great range.
Experience shows in my eyes, that teh hormon diffeence ist to overcome in most respects,
especially the intellectual ones.
Ironically this is not so much natural, withou problems and questions,
as it is in praxis. The question of liberating woman is indeed msot aonne of
social dicŽvison of work and socuil roles.
Perahps it would be better to ignor ethe differnc emuch more, than it is done. Uncertainity about social roles and acting at all are a rewason in my
eyes to keep thsi role discussion much more vivid than necessary.
There is really much more freedom in man and woman as it is seen.
That is the great message of "tabula rasa", which has thsu been the
staring point of the historical philosophical enlightment.
We are not very used in using freedom.
This makes also the great uncertainity of the older generation.
Ther are often things and habits and views defended and hold by peole who know very well that they answer notr the lot of question that are used to to answer to.
So, the plkasticity of the brain, the enormous possibilztiy of control and enlarging conciosnes are the reasons to generalize Feud.
Greetings and god night
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: deleuze-guattari@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Gesendet: 17.09.07 23:15:46
> An: <deleuze-guattari@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Betreff: Re: [Deleuze-Guattari] Severer error concernng Kundalini Yoga experiendce
> Hi everybody,
> My name is Bruno,
> I am trying to venture in Deleuze and Guattari universe for my artistic work but I have no academic background. At the moment I am struggling to understand Anti-Oedipus opening: Capitalism and Schizophrenia:
> "What a mistake to have ever said the id. Everywhere it is machines--real ones, not figurative ones: machines driving other machines, machines being driven by other machines, with all the necessary couplings and connections."
> What DG mean by the freudian id. within the context of the concept of desiring -production?
> could someone help me in this
> best regards Bruno
> > Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 13:35:51 +0200> From: hwenk@xxxxxx> To: deleuze-guattari@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [Deleuze-Guattari] Severer error concernng Kundalini Yoga experiendce> > Hello dear memembers of the list,> > in the link concerning the blind born patient without psychosis, > there is a svere restriction anad erranous description concerning the experince of> advanced kunsdalini yogis.> As you konow from standard Freud writimgs,> teh Topology : Unconciousnes, Subconciousnesss and Conciousennes> involves two translations or dirxcting of> nerve impules to two higher> concoisess connected nerne synpses circuits. > Now, the very often and commen described expereinces,> #also uhnder very hard alocohol or other drugs,> of little insexcts,anoimals, spidres,> atbest an unspecific procklindg is a not full awarenes of> the deepeste true nerve impulses as such, therfgore> ther are symbolized as tiny animals or so latest for the subconcious - concious barrier. > > Now in Yog atwioo things happen: First there are more nerveimpuklse started than unsual, also the production of some more and new neurotransmitters.> In accordabce with good old Spinoza the yogus tzhen get, with more> nerve cells working together, a "True", tactile, felling> for> the nerve impopulses thenmselsvs,like the feeling is trie> if you pinch wit afinger nail in anozther finger.> Also according to good old Spinoz , this "trie" perception> leads to the vanishing of alot of imafineary oahanartsies, like thes animals> and also of the disturabnce of normal perception of th eworld by > false interpretated nerve impulses. > > It ias not only a state of mor eknowlegdge of more consioucesness,> bur also often ther ishaoppenuing a lot in the body,> most prominetn in the production of heat.> More never impulse, more consumptionof oxygen more heat - called taps in Indian yogc philosphy. > Controlled production of heat and tapas make sthe bod yand minmd> working much better. > The yogis know what they feel and control it, > especially more nerve impuls firing of the brain than usuall.> Lilke progfessional sportsmen (and sportswomen) also have> a much better functiong body und control,but focused to the> muscle part of the body. > > As undenaiblethinking and feeling is connected to brain activity, > it is a very desirabble state of the body and mind to be "yogic". > As pointed out again and again, > the develoment or a "yogic" sports men is often interrupted,> interpretating everythinh not in th enormal average as > pathological - due to a lachk of systematic experience with these> very great potentialsa of the human body mind. > > The model is adolesemce and the puberty.> The growing of the human soul does not stop with 21 in the average -> as you hopefully has remarked by your own experience already.> Of course there are doubts if tany development hast taken place until 21 not to ask for later ages, even worse a devolpment to the better.> So the agypsts wanted to say to the greeks: You wilL always stay > childish. ... > > In order to avoid diplomatic trouble.....-> > greetings Harald Wenk > > > > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----> > Von: deleuze-guattari@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Gesendet: 11.09.07 17:24:17> > An: <deleuze-guattari@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> > Betreff: Re: [Deleuze-Guattari] waffling, again...> > > > > > Hi there,> > > > > thanks Chris for the psychosis link-its an interesting> > > proposition-i will make an effort to find out if there is anyone> > > who expereinces psychosis who has been blind since birth. i'm> > > hoping that there is for i would not want, after years of> > > constructivism, to link psychotis to brain development (kind of> > > gives too much ground back to biological determinism) but worth> > > finding out nevertheless.> > > > In that sense, logically, schizophrenia may be a brain disease, something> > uncomfortable.> > > > > charles, the url would not work so i am still in a state of> > > ignorance ( name ruth). however, your post sounds like you have> > > been doing thoughtful work which i would like to hear elaborated> > > more should you have the time.> > > > thanx charlie P. I think once a girl named melissa mentioned me the> > connection in spanish with what's his name, Rayuela...a Paris....Cortazar.> > > > > i have a bit of a practical dillema around the role of the> > > expert.> > > > mmm> > > > > i agree with what you say but, in practice, one is often> > > in dialogue with majoritarian discourse. for example, i'm also> > > involved in a service user training initiative-basically people> > > using or who have used mental health services meet with trainee> > > clinical psychologists once a month to answer questions about> > > training concerns from the context of service user perspectives.> > > > of course..> > > > > this all ran smoothly until it came to naming the role. the group> > > felt that their function was consultative so decided on> > > consultant which was rejected on the grounds that it implied> > > considerable professional training, skill and expertise.> > > > problem is then, in that case, where do you send them to,...Next, at the> > Office!> > > > > also> > > that the term had other connotations in the nhs ( that is don't> > > step on the toes of the doctors).> > > > agree> > > > > the group replied that anyone> > > who had self managed a psychotic episode also had considerable> > > skill and profesional experience-the group was made up of a maths> > > teacher a special needs teacher an ex social worker.> > > > OKayy..> > > > > whetherthey> > > had been 'professional' or not, they considered themselves the> > > experts of their own experience-> > > > Question of naming-identifying the source, where they get "experience" fromm> > > > > there are PR consultants and> > > other kinds of consultant. the group asked why they were being> > > required to use a name (advisor)> > > > mmm> > > > > that did not fit what they were> > > doing. anyhow, the choice came down to pulling out-then the work> > > would not be done at all or raising all this stuff in the project> > > evaluation. the group decided that they take this path. so> > > wouster-you are right to be cautious-there is a lot of work to do yet.> > > > piles of work in the academy> > > > > the point of all this? i support the group in so far as they need> > > a site of enunctiation in practices that have power over them.> > > moreover, i think there still needs to be room to acknowledge> > > what people can do. however, i work in the awareness that the> > > experts of their own experience could easily become as despotic> > > as any other kind of expert. resistance is not innocent in other> > > words. i find mysel in a continual negotation between making room> > > in majoritarian languages and contesting the egocentric premises> > > of this language.> > > > phhhwww, that s hard working keeping a household.> > > > > the focus on neologisms is the other side of this problem.> > > > for the youngsters indeed, but who isntit?> > > > > psychaitry defines psychosis as lacking in insight and out of> > > touch with reality.> > > > ok, thnx Ruth, I have here this book on my desk: by Guus Labooy: "Waar Geest> > is, is Vrijheid." to me the question to write an article in MGv.> > www.Trimbos.nl.> > > > > i don't think i need to bother with the real> > > on this list but lacking in insight clearly belongs to subjective> > > interiority. there is also the whole question of reflection and,> > > again, power. it is quite ok to have exstatic expereinces if one> > > is a theologian or a philosopher but not so for most other> > > subjectivities. people that expereince psychosis frequently> > > dialogue with their voices and often has a reflective dimension> > > that is comparable to but not the same as 'sane' reflection. this> > > is important because psychoanalysis often refuses to work with> > > people that experience psychosis. however, psychosis is as much> > > an attempt to make sense out of nonsense as is it is a flight> > > from dominant sense regimes.so been doing a lot of work on> > > idioysyncratic syntaxes of exteriority. its nothing big or very> > > clever-just trying to find a way of listening responsively to> > > expereinces that don't follow recognised conventions but usually> > > have some of their own. we've been thinking of this as a kind of> > > translation (with all the problems of [power and transposition> > > that go along with this).> > > > > Sloughing one's skin.-The snake that cannot slough its skin> > > perishes. Likewise spirits which are prevented from changing> > > their opinions; they cease to be spirits (Nietzsche: Daybreak:V:573)> > > > wku, have a nice day> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________> > List address: deleuze-guattari@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Info: http://lists.driftline.org/listinfo.cgi/deleuze-guattari-driftline.org
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