> hi Patachon!
>
> very interesting, thanks for sharing all of this thinking,
> largely I am in agreement and wonder how to clarify
> what is not in disagreement yet now it needs to be
> shaped further to communicate the sense of ideas,
> of symbolism. a small preface, and i am not sure if
> others have had this experience- yet i grew up in a
> symbol-laden environment (catholic upbringing) so
> this symbolism became of interest after breaking out
> of an embedded symbolism of religious aspects in
> rituals and artifacts, and also, the literal equivalence
> between symbols and meanings- that the universalist
> aspects of the definition are, as you write, subject to
> language, interpretation, limitations,
don't worry, many latinists or well balanced minds have been in a similar
process of disengagement from a relatively closed set of symbolic
environment when growing in some sphere any kind
(imagine muslims erudits)
but the important point is to acquire his own balance of information from a
multifaceted set of sources, not keeping the mind focused on only one kind
of extraterrestrial forces on this planet. (If any)
One of my good "souvenir" as an acolyte in my hometown ,as an 11 years old
kid,is that in the middle of the "Credo in unus deum", sung on a sunday
morning by the choir and all the fidels fulfilling the 14th century church,i
stayed in front of the altar looking high to the roof, at birds flying
inside the "nef" and passing in and out trough some hole in the vitrail, for
some minutes, not hearing all the other 5 acolytes, the three priests and
the "bedeau" already seated and laughing (?) but trying to discreetely call
me back on earth and be seated until the Credo finished. I did it, finally.
>
> the aspect of 'jungian' psychology or psychotherapy
> has seemed to be placed in a certain realm in the soft-
> science that resembles alchemy ever-more by the day,
> the patient becoming the furnace for the experiments,
> pills curing ubiquitous leadenness, credit to goldcards.
> yet, in the realm of language and abstraction, there is
> some (floating) aspect to symbolism that 'dictionaries'
> may also not be able to hold, even in the present, in
> words. for instance, referencing Mecca was done, in
> respect for the religious ceremony it is hoped, yet for
> the purpose of architectural place/space, and one of
> congregation in a certain typological space (square/
> plaza with perimeter) that, in previous thinking of the
> cities as artificial mountains (common statement, say,
> with pigeons even getting in on the act, as they are
> cliff dwelling birds and thus like skyscrapers for their
> similar qualities, can pigeons be wrong?)- it is this
> aspect, with the fallen ruins of the WTC 'towers' that
> scraped the sky like mountains, that what remained
> was a void, yet also in a city whose identity has been
> associated with skyscrapers, possibly a rare chance
> to question this pattern of development for height- to
> consider what is part of mountains, valleys and other
> systems which make mountains what they are, yet
> also, valleys what they are. both spectacular in their
> own ways of experience- yet different experiences.
> and so, for this one place, a moment of some great
> questioning which could have happened about the
> pattern of building in cities (and around the world,
> no less, with regard to real estate, but also, to open
> up these building types to critical review, with safety,
> critical infrastructure, control systems, rescue and
> other measures (more efficient, more greenery in
> cities, 3D navigation of space, not 2D in terms of
> going from place 1 to place 2 in a city, as a network.
i once posted here about 2d buildings (extended on the ground like Hearst
or Louis XIV castles, compared to 3d like the wtc.
I prefer the 2d, generally speaking.
"Owning" some ground is better than overlooking it, don't you think ?
>
> long time, dictionary has been the 'favorite book' as
> its ability to cross-reference (it has some small extra
> information/encyclopedic) makes 'surfing the book'
> a great way to think, or learn, or has helped me in
> this way.
certainly it's always interesting to read a good book, discover the world
with documents or good documentary programming on visual media.
the visual drawings in the sides of the pages of the 'Petit Larousse"
were very useful to imagine the concept they represented with simple but
precise wording.
still remebering even the banners (flags- bannières) of world countries
seen in the "pages de garde"...
but the "visual" attraction of the moving movies and tv magnetism is a
terrible force to distort and correct.
> likewise, ideally, something like an Oxford
> English Dictionary (OED) would be ideal, i did not
> know it would have more about such symbolism yet
> it makes perfect sense, as it seems to work just as
> Pat describes so well. all of it. there is something
> about dictionaries, then words, then etymologies,
> symbolism, myths, almanacs, references, maps,
> they all seem to come together in some way with,
> say, placenames for geography....
dictionaries reflect the way of figuring the world using words when they
are(were) published. like the almanachs for the campesinos of Auvergne, or
the Encyclopedia for Diderot contemporaneous followers.
>
> there is something i just read about dyslexia which
> had me wondering if, once i am someday able to
> move and learn French so as to read Paul Valéry
> and others, in the original language, if whatever it
> is with sound-language issues & seeing/not-seeing
> things with language/words written/reading, if such
> issues of (dyslexia/language) may be changed in
> learning and using another language instead.
Someone's brain is strongly stressed, sometimes, to distinguish between the
symbolic thinking in one idiom (language), translating it to express it into
another and trying to figure if the translated result can be hanged on some
visible screen ("pantalla" in spanish) in front of some readers more used to
this second language.
]"apantallar" in spanish means frightening...[
Once i began to learn some italian, and became progressively confused in the
mix of latin derivated senses, word's evolution and symbolic discrepancies
between french, wallon (a latin/romanic dialect), spanish and italian. and
also english wich use many adopted/adapted latin/romanic words.
Many common words have a completely different interpreted result, like
torche, flashlight and lampe torche already mentioned here.
there are so many "eruptions" in the mind when you think about a bridge, a
pie or a cloud and try to construct/build/design a good result in or of
those different languages.
> for
> one, it would finally make me be more quiet, which
> I am fondly looking forward to that day, as there is
> something about the language of English that to
> me is identical to mathematics in its utility and its
> consistency, yet the aspect of the futility of it as a
> way of reasoning-- maybe only for me-- goes back
> into some archaeological understanding of other
> ways of language or communicating, say with the
> symbols yet maybe without speech at all, if only it
> was possible to be engaged enough to be able to
> work through ideas without having to talk or write.
there you abord (engage) the discussion about the necessity of some language
to communicate.
to be understood you need a two way transmitter.
>
> though i am also contradicting myself which is a
> paradoxical state, or so i tend to believe, and it is
> why i work on an experiment of flipping letters &
> numbers in a three-valued state of logic.
playing permutations. that's pure mathematics.
about purity in basics, could you imagine how to demonstate that 1 more 1
is 2 ?
once, i
> literally thought it possible that 'deconstruction' of
> language was, actually, the deconstruction of the
> alphabet and its structure, which was then done.
> (made an artifact/fake relic of the painted idea.)
> this common structure of the alphabet was, in
> turn, a symbol that is found in ancient west and
> very similar to middle-east and other patterns
> generating through language and mathematics
> and geometries. yet when people i have read
> write/speak about 'deconstruction' it is from a
> position i cannot quite understand, more like a
> state of mind, perception, embedded inside of
> a certain language, (fish in water, maybe even
> in fishbowl if language limits considerations).
> so, the literal structure of english alphabet is
> very much like scaffolding in architecture,
humm... alphabet is for words and understandable communication what musical
encoding is to produce musical partiture , like some tools for a painter (
but there the interpretation of the painter is much more complex than just
following a partition of Wagner as a member of the orchestra) or (passively
?) reading a text or a chain of hieroglyphs in an egyptian or maya crypt.
deconstruction means demythification or simplification.
Some mathematical theories were used to produce modern classical music.
> it is odd that architecture that is celebrated is,
> sometimes very obviously, looking as if it is the
> construction that precedes it. once was told by
> a professor that architects are the only ones who
> take photos of construction sites.
recently , it's possible. But normal..Once the design is finished and
adopted, the interest of the conceptor / designer is to keep the project as
he spirited it, so he does picts to be sure of that and fight against
misinterpretations of his plans by the contractors!
:-)
>
> also, the idea of 'composition' and the musical
> 'score' and musical notation (of which i know
> absolutely nothing but, like find fascination in
> the parallels, or maybe the unique aspects of
> symbols in a realm with mathematical context.
> maybe i am way too far out on this one here.
> brian
composition is basically combining together some notes,
design is also a combination, but at another level, of necessity to fulfil,
functionality, visual impact inside and ouside (instead of sound impact in
music, partially combined with visual impact in opera work ) , combined
with applied human physiology (quality of environment, adaptation to the
needed result - working activity or relaxation. f.i., human behaviorism in
a closed location - window size, access, density, sound insulation...
a.s.o.)
Pat
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